FBI Analysis on PA Police Shootout

Tag: Concealed CarryConcealedCarryAdvocate

The results of this FBI analysis really reinforces the importance of shot placement if you are ever forced to use your gun against an attacker. Police fired a total of 107 rounds at the single suspect and it took an M4 rifle to finally incapacitate him. The suspect was able to fire 26 rounds from his .45 caliber handgun and even reloaded from a box of loose rounds.

  • 3 officers were involved in a shooting this week. An ambush was set up for the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers. One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI). The suspect was armed with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22’s (.40S&W) and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.
  • Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1″. All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1″ as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).
  • The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points.
  • The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle. The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to engage officers, and was eventually killed by the officer with the M-4.
  • The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.
  • Range between subject and officers: 20 feet.
  • Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket.
  • Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.
  • This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill. There was another incident where a subject was shot inside of his vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head.
  • In this same incident, the back of the subject’s seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat. In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window. Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.
  • (The) PD is now considering replacing their Glock 22’s (.40S&W) with Glock 21’s (.45ACP).

Here is the FBI’s PowerPoint presentation on this incident.
*** WARNING: This PDF contains autopsy photos and gore, NSFW *** FBI Analysis PDF

12 Responses to “FBI Analysis on PA Police Shootout”

  1. KeyJ63 says:

    I carry a Sig P239 which is .40 S&W scary to think that it would take that many shots to bring someone down. It only comes w/ 7 round mag, I will be getting me an extended 10 round mag for sure.

  2. 33Marine says:

    I carry a Glock 27, .40 caliber loaded with 165 Federal Hydroshock Ammuntion. Utilized weapon to fire on felon operating vehicle that struck and injured partner. Fired round thru drivers window. Bullet entered glass and struck suspect (broadside) in center of left arm. Bullet travelled thru arm causing damage to muscle and shattering upper arm. Bullet did (fell dead) upon exiting arm therefore not striking suspect in upper body to cause any further damage/injury. Must say was a little surprised/dissappointed in bullet performance but I do realize glass takes alot of steam out of the bullet.

  3. Ignatius28 says:

    I have been a police officer for approx: 14 years, and I have worked in the Chicagoland area (the good, the bad, and the ghetto), and the tougher south suburban area throughout my career. As a patrolman, and later a homicide detective, I have seen numerous people shot and killed on different occasions (at least 200 or more combined.)I also train very often in an effort to stay tactically edged.

    One thing I can say is that when it comes to bullets and victims is that it’s all about shot placement, and really how that person reacts when shot. I have seen people shot with numerous different calibers (9mm, 40 cal, 45 acp,357, and so on), and from the distances of point blank, to far away. Where bullets are placed, and how that human reacts to them, is what determines how he/she stops or dies. The only gun that I have truly seen demonstrate true one shot stoping power is a 12 guage shotgun, and some rifle bullets. Other that that, a head shot from almost all calibers have mostly been a one shot stopping power deal (instant incapacitation). The aforementioned calibers are all good, have been tested far more than ever, and have been used to kill a lot of people across the world. I will say that I am not an expert on the science of killing, bullets or pathology, but have gained some expertease through experience. I have read this article from the FBI, and yes an M-4, or 223 caliber weapon is better (AR-15 based, Kel-Tec, Ruger carbine, Sig, etc..) for all around purpose, and should become the weapon to resort to even at patrolman level.

    As far as we officers are concerned, and what we can do to increase our survival if we ever get in a shoot out in reference to handguns:

    1. Do some sort of training that can help you determine when a possible shoot out or confrontation may occur (reading suspect danger signs). Heck if you have to, train from prior shootouts scenarios (police and criminal), and see what went wrong, or what could could have saved lives. Or go to youtube, or other video sites, watch police shootouts, and determine what could help prevent officer’s or any life loss (officer placement, distance, watching the hands, reading the suspects body lang). If you don’t have good cover when shooting, moving, and simultaneously checking your surroundings is key. With this learn the streets, and keep your ear too the ground no matter where you work.

    2. Get a service weapon with a high capacity. As the criminals artilery advances, yours better too. And belive me, with the illegal drug business doing good in the street, the Saturday Night Speacial of today is a glock, ruger, S&W, Beretta, Sig, H&K, and so on. Even a guy with a 25 rd mac 12 in 380 caliber (ball ammo) has a tactical advantage over someone with 8 shot high end 1911 loaded with super duper xxx hollow points, and has to reload under pressure. Yes distance, and a lot of other factors come into play, but ask yourself, even if you are a good reloader, would you want to chance it, or pull the trigger again (8 shots vs 25 shots = who has more chances at placing shots). If you are comfortable with 9mm, 40, 45, etc, make it hold a lot of em, and make sure that the round is a good penetrater. Remember, a bullet hole is a bullet hole, and the more of them and larger wound cavities, cause more systematic blood loss which is conducive to incapacitation. Don’t forget that your weapon is man made, and can jam (even if it has not yet). So when you train with it, take it to the max and see if you can make it foul up basically by shooting it fast, one handed, or in different positions (not sand in barrel, special ammo, etc..). If it keeps going flawlessly, keep it clean/lubed, and feed it the ammo that it eats best without a problem. If you get a problem research it, and correct it.

    3. If your dept allows, carry a back up weapon, and keep it out of sight, but secure it and make it quickly accessible. Practice how to get the back up out just as fast as the primary. An exposed backup weapon just tells the perp, “Hey I or we got 2 guns we gotta take now”. Now the officers says, “I may have it in me to struggle for one gun, but now 2 guns”. You don’t know what a perps gun has in it, but you treat it like its something that can kill you. Imagine the pressure of knowing (key word knowing) how good you weapon functions, what’s in it, and what its capable of, and it being in the hands of the perp. Get a back up weapon, because at first encounters its mostly one on one, or being outnumbered until backup arrives. Try not to be disarmed.

    4. Use good, simple, common, and sound sense. Get out the mind frame of thinking inside the box, and think in and out. For examp, stop saying things like if you can’t hit em with 8 you don’t need to be shooting. Yeah ok, believe that until Pookies 4 friends see you shooting at their buddy, and decide to join him (of course armed with the same or better weapons shooting at you from different point of fire). Just use common sense and your gut feeling or 6th sense which = if you have to ask, and have a minute, call for backup and just wait with true cover between you and the perp. We all get a little laxed, but with everything you hear and read about never say never, and make it work for you. We all have a job where you may get a call of people shooting, and you have to go. Hell what call can you really turn down (nodda), so think on your toes, train, and use good common sense so you can come home at the end of the day.

  4. ConcealedCarryAdvocate says:

    Ignatius28,

    Thanks for the info, it is appreciated. Stay safe.

    - ConcealedCarryAdvocate

  5. KennyK says:

    This is the sole reason why I changed to a Glock 21. I have no intention to shoot anyone, but if I am put into that position, I would want the knockdown power of the 45. Law Enforcement must have superior firepower over the bad guys for obvious reasons. Be Safe out there!

  6. Chuck Haggard says:

    This is a heavily edited version of the event and has facts misstated.

    The .45 gives no more “stopping power” than the .40, or any other service caliber pistol. All pistols suck at stopping bad guys, there is no other way to look at it.

    For the record, the fight stopping shot was the .40 hit to the suspect’s right arm, this caused him to not be able to reload his pistol.

    He had to be fought into cuffs and into the ambulance.

    His aorta was never hit either. This would have ended the fight in seconds. Placement is everything in a gunfight, and the key to “stopping power”. Bigger or magical bullets are not the answer.

    33Marine, the .40 165gr Hydrashock is a dog of a load, poorly designed, poor performer, one of the few bad .40 loads available. Although glass and a humerus bone are significant obstacles to any bullet.

  7. Jim says:

    From looking at the autopsy photos, i.e. X Ray of Deceased, all were incapacitating injuries. The point is, that a .25 caliber could have stopped the bad guy, as long as you have Good Shot Placement (head shot T-Section).

    I train all my officers that that Shot placement is everything. A very pissed off person, does not feel pain. But his spinal cord and heart will shut him down instanly if interupted.

    Great analysis and comments. SHOT PLACEMENTS RULES.

  8. J.W. Baker says:

    We at our gunclub did in fact run a test on various caliber that were “new” last summer. Those being the .380, .38spl, 9mm Luger, t.357mag, .40S&W,, 10mm and the .45acp caliber. We also used “self-defense” ammo from various manufacturers. Those being Hornady, Federal, Double-Tap, Winchester and Pow-R-Ball.

    To make a long story short, the only calibers that really did the job on penetration were the 6-inch .357mag, the .45apc and the 10mm which penetrated the deepest into wet newsprint that was 16 inches thick. All the above penetrated at least 8.5 inches! (this is close to 12 inches in the human Torso) The others penetrated less than 6 inches.

  9. J.W. Baker says:

    We at our gunclub did in fact run a test on various caliber that were “new” last summer. Those being the .380, .38spl, 9mm Luger, .357mag, .40S&W,, 10mm and the .45acp caliber. We also used “self-defense” ammo from various manufacturers. Those being Hornady, Federal, Double-Tap, Winchester and Pow-R-Ball.

    To make a long story short, the only calibers that really did the job on penetration were the 6-inch .357mag, the .45apc and the 10mm which penetrated the deepest into wet newsprint that was 16 inches thick. All the above penetrated at least 8.5 inches! (this is close to 12 inches in the human Torso) The others penetrated less than 6 inches.

  10. J.W. Baker says:

    We at our gunclub did in fact run a test on various handgun calibers, using new pistols in Sig, Glock, Smith & Wesson and Kimber last summer. Those being the .380, .38spl, 9mm Luger, .357mag, .40S&W,, 10mm and the .45acp caliber. We also used “self-defense” ammo from various manufacturers. Those being Hornady, Federal, Double-Tap, Winchester and Pow-R-Ball and Cor-Bond ammo.

    To make a long story short, the only calibers that really did the job on penetration were the 6-inch .357mag, the .45apc Kimber and the 10mm GLOCK pistol, all of which penetrated the deepest into soaking wet newsprint, that was 16 inches thick. All the above penetrated at least 8.5 inches! (this is close to 12 inches in the human Torso) The others penetrated less than 6 inches.

  11. Kev says:

    I’m having a hard time believing that Speer gold dots did not penetrate even 1 inch LOL.. 40 cal bullets will penetrate 11 quarter inch prices of wood!!! Seen it happen myself..also light steel..what a bunch of Bullshit..I use A Glock 23 Gen 3. With PDX1 165 Grains FBI standard.. That Bad guy would not survive 2 shots from my Glock.. FACT

  12. Kev says:

    Look maybe it was true maybe a fluke. Some bad primers or not enough powder I dont know.. It’s just weird.

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